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Permitting question?
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jesseminer



Joined: 08 Mar 2014
Posts: 18
Location: US

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:33 pm    Post subject: Permitting question?  Reply with quote

I recently bought an un-patented Association Placer mining claim in Idaho County, Idaho. It's on USFS land and on the "Closed" list for dredging or highbanking below the MHWM posted by IDWR. A small portion of it also has a "Designated Wetlands" on it.

 Can someone give me some advice on or suggest how to go about permitting or any other suggestions as well? I would love some feedback cause I'm a little lost at this point on the new regs.

I've been a dredger for 8 yrs. I've owned claims in California, Oregon, and now Idaho. I've received dredge permits in California (before the ban of course) and in Oregon almost every year since then.

This claim in Idaho is mostly on a small un-named gulch, with a small portion on a well known creek, that flows into another creek, that flows into the Salmon River. The gulch and creek that my claim is on are not "Navigable". But is on the closed list none the less. Don't understand that either.

 I've spoken with USFS about the claim and they've suggested just putting in a NOI and then meet them on the claim to go over my plan. The USFS guy Clint in Grangeville seemed like he would work with me and help me on it. Possibly working a deal reclaiming the "Designated Wetland" for them. But mostly I just want to get a small trommel up there and hand feed it for the season.
 I put in a NOI just last week with the small trommel set up idea having it discharge into a settling pond above the MHWM. Along with a good reclamation plan as well.

Any ideas or thoughts are welcomed and greatly appreciated.
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Wallrat



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesse, once you sign away your right to mine your claim by signing an NOI, you have volunteered to play by their rules. And for now you must, if you want to stay out of trouble.

Here is the first paragraph of the original 1872 Mining Law:

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That all valuable mineral deposits in lands belonging to the United States, both surveyed and unsurveyed, are hereby declared to be free and open to exploration and purchase, and the the lands in which they are found to occupation and purchase, by citizens of the United States and those who have declared their intention to become such, under regulations prescribed by law, and according to the local customs or rules of miners, in the several mining-districts, so far as the same are applicable and not inconsistent with the laws of the United States.

Your association claim is open to "occupation" and "exploration" (for minerals)...or at least it is until one signs that right away with an NOI.

 At this point, I would follow through and hope for the best. The legal learning process is long and difficult, but you are here, so all is not lost. Read, study, and learn.
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jesseminer



Joined: 08 Mar 2014
Posts: 18
Location: US

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wallrat, thanks for your insight and response. I'll admit wholeheartedly that I still have much to learn. I've been reading many of the posts on here and am very surprised as to what I thought the laws were and what they actually are.
Can you tell me why or how, if I've put in a Notice of Intent, I've signed away my rights to mine? If the law is the law, how can a simple NOI give those rights to someone else when I'm the owner of those minerals.
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Wallrat



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesse, my knowledge is small in comparison to the main guys here...like you, I'm just getting started, so my advise is almost certainly skewed, off and wrong.

It works something like this: Laws are different than agency regulations. The USFS, BLM, etc. get to write their sets of management "rules" and then we must follow them, even though the rules trample on the original intent of the law (1872 mining law, in this case). However, if you know the law, and do not sign away your rights to mine through your right to enter into a contract (the NOI), you can assert them and win. You WILL have to defend your actions both in the field, and in the courtroom. Many guys print up the laws they need to know and put them into a field folder, so they can show the Gubbermint folks the law when they come calling.

 
To answer your question, you voluntarily entered into a contract with the USFS agreeing to submit your mining actions to their rules and oversight when you signed that NOI. Did you sign it? Why, otherwise would signing it be necessary? Did you wonder how this whole NOI process does not have a single govt. form or official paper in it? You must provide the "paperwork" for a govt. interaction? Who ever heard of that?


 Welcome to the site......you've taken your first step down the rabbithole.
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jesseminer



Joined: 08 Mar 2014
Posts: 18
Location: US

PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wallrat, I think I get it now. We as miners don't have to follow those regs. or rules set by USFS or BLM because they aren't actual Federal Law. Because those two are seperate from each other.

I appreciate your humoring me on the subject. I've learned a little and I'll keep reading.
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Wallrat



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if I understand this, that is both correct and badly mistaken. To tell a ranger that you're a free-born 'Merikan miner, and his damned CFRs aren't meant for you is a sure opportunity to test your thesis in a courtroom.

 So you need to know why, and when they do not apply to you. Most of this has been discussed here in other threads, and I'm really not qualified to explain much more. We're getting to the end of what I know.

Read the 1872 Mining Law, the FLPMA, paying attention to the scope of the law, and understand what that means. While the USFS rules are not Laws, they are treated as such in a court.

Read up on the the Clifford Tracy, and Terry McClure cases. By that, I mean read all the actual court documents you can find. As well as every mining relevant court case you can find.

Remember, the nail that stands up will be beaten down...so study well before you go asserting your rights. It will be resisted by the .gov. Several of our folks here have had much experience with this. Some win repeatedly. I won once ("I've been Cited" thread).
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jesseminer



Joined: 08 Mar 2014
Posts: 18
Location: US

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I understand that as well. I'm gonna continue to work with them and hope for the best like you said. I've got a few other claims as well in the same area, and will study as much as I can to apply the knowledge to the others.
I'm definitely not going to test the water until I know exactly whats in there first. I don't want my claim and any operation that on within the lines of it to get tied up in court for years, so I can't do anything on it.
I think I'm gonna find a happy medium between the two. Knowing the actual Act of 1872 Mining Law and court cases, but actually talking to USFS politely and using the knowledge when speaking with the"Gubernmint" so they don't go on the defensive with me.
But I'll look at the "I've been cited" thread.
So where are you from, how long have been a miner, and where Wallrat?
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NCrossman



Joined: 17 Jun 2012
Posts: 60
Location: IDAHO

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are safe if you are in Idaho County. The Sheriff there has challenged the authority of all federal agencies there. You don't NEED TO do an NOI! Don't be fooled by their scare tactics. Trust me, as much as you want to play nice with them and they "seem" like they are willing to make nice with you, they aren't! You are dealing with uninformed federal personnel. Not God and not Lawful authority! I suggest before you do anything else or buy any more claims that you know your rights. And the fact is, your right to mine is just that! YOURS! Not anyone else's. But If I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to tell them anything.... especially about wetlands... The Epa will jump all over that in a sec and then all your claims will be shut down... I am not telling you to be dishonest, but I am telling you to shut your mouth! If there is any way that you can  stop your workings with them, then go for it and don't involve yourself with them until they bother you. And when that happens, you call Sheriff Doug Giddings and his deputies will come out and tell the agency to get lost for you! It is really that simple! But what I have learned is keep your head down and do what you want to do; which is mine your claims. YOU PAY FOR THE CLAIMS, why should anyone else determine what you can get for the money you basically shell out?
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jesseminer



Joined: 08 Mar 2014
Posts: 18
Location: US

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicole,
 Thanks for your advice. I wasn't aware the Sheriff of Idaho County was Doug. I've read all about him. Thank you for that info. I feel much better knowing that. And will more than likely call on him at some point.

When I spoke to the USFS Ranger out of Grangeville, it was him who informed me about the "Wetlands". He also said the previous owner had highbanked in there and they were going after him for not reclaiming his holes and for other things. Whatever going after him means. Probably just a scare tactic. BUT I have already put in a Notice of Intent. Just about a small trommel operation above the MHWM, and put it in about 10 days ago. Then I found this site... usually how my luck goes, lol...

So should I follow through with it, since they have already received it. (Return receipt, so I know they got it)... Or am I ok to just forget about it until they come calling?

I've been reading and reading on here learning everything I can about our rights to mine. I'll print out everything as well.
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NCrossman



Joined: 17 Jun 2012
Posts: 60
Location: IDAHO

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesse,

I am not a lawyer or counselor of any type (Nor do I want to be) but IN MY OPINION... I WOULD LEAVE IT WHERE IT LIES NOW.  

In my experience, and from many others as well. I am also aware that most NOI's get denied. Then you have that occasional GOOD Greenie that will tell you the truth about NOI's. Which they are self initiating. THis means that if You think that you are going to make a SIGNIFICANT disturbance of the ground on your claims, and you feel that an NOI (Notice of intent... to significantly alter or disturb ground/dirt) would suit you, Then carry on. If not (as we all know, we don't significantly disturb anything) then leave it be!

Good Luck. I hope to see you up there this year. As we have moved all of our operations up there solely because of the backing and the affirmative action that Sheriff Giddings is taking against all these inconsistent agencies and their rules!


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