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Beat them at their own game !

One thing I have learned from watching all these lawsuits by environmental groups  . . .  is that it is nothing but a big game. Common sense and logic play no part in it.
  Now I see they want to "take" more land for wilderness withdrawal.
  Why not introduce legislation that puts a 5 YEAR MORATORIOUM on all recreational based spending and divert those funds into community gardens, nationwide.
  Anyone caught opposing the bill would be chastized and shunned for not being politically correct.
  Play time is over . . .  the game is not. We have to think outside the box to remove the constant threat of lawsuits that stifle the BLM/USFS efforts to manage these vast stretches of land.
  I am currently promoting 'THE LAND MITIGATION ACT' to also put a stop to the madness.  That would be an acre for acre mitigation of any lands "taken" for wilderness withdrawal. That also should put a stop to some of the bullshit.

  Next out of the chute . .The Western Sage Grouse Habitat Protection act.
  This needs to be shut down asap. This will be a devastating bill and wreck havoc amongst the masses. . . . . We should introduce a bill that would require "cloning" of Sage grouse by the 1000's and put them in zoos around the west.

 The MAIN problem with the judicial system is the amount of false identities we have in the industry. It is estimated that 20 % off our current regime is under false identity with a phony identity. East European cartel/mafia operatives have learned how to infiltrate American Justice Sysyem and pig milk the system to death. We need to investigate the identity of all parties involved in these environmental lawsuits. If they know up front their identity will be checked . .  you will see a dramatic drop in lawsuits by them.

You pose statements that take issue with the direction society is moving to protect everything. But I will give you a specifc case in point.  In the western States the BLM manages "Wild Horse" populations and has an adoption process in that regard.  Currently BLM can not keep up with the escalating herds, and their numbers are now said to be out of the realm of controlling their numbers.  Simply put we have too many wild horses.  

The natural gas industry wants to begin drilling for the resource where it is known to exist in the western states.  There was a recent documentary done discussing the overpopulation of wild horses, and yet the "enviros" want to stop the drilling because they contend it will harm the wild horses.

Is there any common sense to their aganda.  NO.  Yet it persisits.  And then you may ask:  Why do they post a sticker on the power mower that says "do not place hands under carriage when motor is running".

Kind of sums up "Intellegent" society does it not?


bejay:  Yep... and they call us stupid....


While I am not so sure that we have been taken over by pirates . .  in all honesty . .  we seem to be experiencing a massive failure of our educational process to produce a marketable product. Some say they want their money back. Things went south when we gave the 18 year olds the vote.  . . .
  Now we have a bunch of emotional based thinkers rising to the level of "setting Policy" while scurring around trying to justify their very expensive education and their excessive salary. Logic has been supressed infavor of "warm and fuzzy" things.

Hell, I'm still tryin to figure out how dredging somehow "pollutes". Course I'm kinda dumb... in a smart way...   Wink

goldriver wrote:
While I am not so sure that we have been taken over by pirates . .  in all honesty . .  we seem to be experiencing a massive failure of our educational process to produce a marketable product. Some say they want their money back. Things went south when we gave the 18 year olds the vote.  . . .
  Now we have a bunch of emotional based thinkers rising to the level of "setting Policy" while scurring around trying to justify their very expensive education and their excessive salary. Logic has been supressed infavor of "warm and fuzzy" things.

The era of the computer and electronics has vastly enabled the younger group to vote.  Obama was smart to realize the potential to capture the idealist young vote via utilizing the inet.  But imagine, if you will, the deomgraphic power of the cell phones; should the "American Idol"...."Dancing With the Stars" voting method ever materialize.

If you were to go see the movie "War Horse" I believe you will come to grips with society's humanizing animals.  They even personify the goose in addtion to the main characters....the horses themselves.  When training the horse (colt) the young Irishman talks to it and tells it what to do and the horse responds by doing the task, as if it understands  English.  Yes Goldriver, you hit the nail on the head.  Interestingly history shows that ALL great societies fail.  Maybe our time is closer than anticipated.  Lets all go out and have a nice chat with the first squirrel we see, and explain what we want our world to be.


I have been pushing for some kind of classification of effluents . . . toxic and recyclable.  . .  If something is toxic then it should be regulated . . I think we all would agree . .  but clay and silt are NOT toxic and should be called "recyclable".  
  That is why I have invented "The Dredge Doggie"  . . .  it attaches to your dredge and screen out the water and clay and sends it to shore for filtration. The gravel stays in the river, you just remove the brown water. Dredge doggies require an extra pump ( and more gas) and are sort of a pain to use ( extra stuff to pack in)  .. . but in sensitive areas that are super rich in clay pack, then it would pay off.
 I think the day will come when the only way to get a permit in a wilderness withdrawn area is if you use a dredge doggie.
   All I have is a prototype and the retail version would be the exact same size as a keene sluice box and fold up and latch to it.
   Nobody seems interested so the prototype is just sitting around ..  I would like to field test it this season. I had it last year but did not hit any clay that would of justified it on the Rogue River.
  The nice thing about a dredge doggie system is that one could classify out the superfine gold as you go.! It would also remove mercury. It is a series of vibrating plates with a special shape.  In fact the system ends up being a complex option for the serious dredger. Really long story. It would be made from lightweight plastic and quick and easy to set up. Involves filter tubes and a culvert. Option B would be to pump it to a holding pond which would be alot cheaper, if you could get to it with the pump.
  Somebody has got to come up with something to appease the envirophobes . .  it is obvious that they have the vote in the urban areas and doing nothing about the Caliban on dredging is not working out for us experienced miners.
  Science and innovation will be the best approach.

golddiver:  You are assuming that the Greens would accept good science, which I guess is not out of the question, given they have completely bought into bad science.  And besides, why allow facts to get in the way of dogma?

I've done a lot of dredging,in slow water, fast water, shallow water and deep water.  But on my best day and with the worst clays and dirt, I can't match the flume of water borne clays and dirt that run the same waters, after a spring thaw, or a heavy rain.

I add nothing to the water, but I extract a great deal over time.  I take the lead, mercury, iron and metal of value. But I don't add.

If I dredge 14 hours a day, I can not "muddy" up the waters as well as nature can in one hour. Those of us that dredge also know we do more good for the body of water and marine life, than nature does in the short term.

We've actually tried presenting the sound science route (mixed in with all the research available) to the enviros in a friendly manner and even went as far as putting forward an invite to observe underwater mining UP CLOSE and UNDERWATER so that they could see what takes place.

In addition to ignoring the hands-on invite, what they did was cherry pick the anti-mining rhetoric in varying research and to kick out the research that leaned toward "de minimis" impact or "beneficial" impacts. So for example, they ignored the ONLY study that EPA ever did on the subject simply because it failed to find harm.

The bottom line is that they have an anti mining agenda and no amount of science is going to change it.
Heckler Fabrication

By chance have a copy of the EPA study on dredging????
Or where could I locate it?

....fixed it.

This is exactly what I mean by distracting yourselves from study of the law.

It's time to buckle down and learn if you want results.

I have responded to these very same issues over and over again for years.

If you ever expect to move beyond the whining, complaining and speculation you must learn the rules of the game - the law.

This forum is only your most recent opportunity of many to change the world around you. You can make a difference right here and now by showing by example that the law can be understood and used to enforce your rights. Those rights have been in existence long before you were born and are still intact today.

Filling this forum with whining and speculation can only create another confusing mess of contradictory "information". Why not practice your old bad habits on one of the many forums already filled with this stuff? Can't we attempt to make just one place on the internet where others can come in the future and gain some real understanding of the natural and granted rights of miners and all men?

Lest you think I'm just some cranky old guy trying to shove his stick in the mud opinions in the middle of your pity party please follow these links to a forum that is familiar to all of you.

HERE you can see that I have just recently addressed the concept of suing the State for "damages" over a suction "ban". I imagine some of you here even donated to that futile cause.

HERE I, once again, demonstrate the easy way to put your government employees on notice that you expect them to do their jobs as ordered by Law.

Please stop guessing and speculating as to what your rights are and what the law is. This is powerful stuff and every time I see one of you posting these distractions I can't help but wonder why that time couldn't have been spent studying the materials on offer here.

Several of you expressed a desire for a high level education in mining rights. That is being made available to you here free of charge by a knowledgeable instructor with real life experience in the subject. Although I do see a real effort being put forth by a few of you the majority seem to be more interested in having questions answered about whatever comes to mind at the moment. This is a distraction to your instructor and the many miners looking on here in the hope that they will not be stuck in a confusing world of regulation by the very same people that are supposed to be their servants.

Please take this opportunity presented to you. You really can make a difference if you work at it. The alternative is the same old results miners have suffered from for years.

The choice is yours. As it always has been.

Heckler Fabrication

my sincerest apologies for the distraction. Please continue..

While Woof! may have been a tad bit hard, he is ABSOLUTELY correct. You should definitely read the thread he linked to pertaining to the issues of Public Comment and in his comments, you will see A LOT of light shed on California's BIGGEST mining problem. It is the miners!

In particular, read his explanation about the difference between policies/rules and the actual law.

While there is nothing inherently wrong with reading these varying studies and trying to educate the public that mining is neither illicit, nor typically deterimental, it is not the way to protect your rights or to get the job done in California. Indeed, it is a distraction and mostly an excercise in futility.

The biggest problem in California is that to date, there does not appear to have been a miner who is willing to take the state on and to throw down the guantlet and finally say:

"Firstly, you don't have the authority to sell me a permit to mine. I have a grant from Congress and you have no authoority on my exclusively possessed mineral property. Secondly, you don't have the authority to criminalize my work on my property. Thirdly, unless you can produce a lawful authority, you are in violation of the law." (That is the super, super, super short version of how this needs to be approached).

This is EXACTLY how we dealt with similar legislation in Oregon at the end of 2010 and by time we were done, we not only crashed the state's email server, but the State Senator who had introduced the bill was quoted as saying "I am not going to die on the sword over this bill. I'm going to leave the miners alone now."

Opposed to playing the defensive, we went on the offensive.

Now I have been told by prominent miners in California that the approach we use in Oregon "cannot work in California". They say that California is too liberal and too this and too that.

Nonsense. We are talking about law and California is bound by the same laws as Oregon or any other state.

The fact is, once enough miners learn the law and not only understand how to use it, but most importantly actually utilize it, I think you will be surprised how fast things will actually turn around.

And on that note, we have a little more than just a right to mine. Mineral Estate Grantees are essentially settlers and we have a vested authority to create a unique form of government - the mining district, and in doing so, we can also acquire some other very powerful tools through the law.

If we had a LAND MITIGATION ACT ..  every single acre withdrawn would have to be offset with an acre sent back to the county affected. I bet you would see an end to alot of these proposals if that were the case . . . .
   Who we got out there willing to promote this into the legislature . . this is an election year and perhaps we could make it into an issue.
   It would be an easy sell . . . due to the fact that 11 western states are on the verge of succeeding from the union over excessive public property that is poorly managed.
   Tied to the Mitigation bill would be another bill . . . "A Certitifed Identity " measure . . . this is needed in the courts to insure that the people involved in a lawsuit are actually who they say they are . . . . in other words . .  anyone brining suit to the BLM over some environmental issue would be subjected to an extensive investigation of their identity. . . . .
   If that were the case . . about 1/2 of these lawsuits would would never get filed . .  because the perp would not want the backround check done for fear of getting caught using a fake identiy.  . . .
       . . . . as for the question by Heckler Fab . .  I think there is a copy of that on this site somewhere, I have seen it . . or excepts of it on this site somewhere.

I posted a study on the forum here. Forum Index -> General
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